Superman vs Goku debate

I've seen a lot of people's who kept saying that Goku should've won. As a fan to both of them, I can't help but feel that this argument is, well, stupid. I just don't see Goku winning, and I'll try to show my point as precisely as I can.

• Instant Transmission - One day, Superman wanted to have a chat with Starfire, who was hanging out with the rest of the Outlaws on a Tamaranean ship off Pluto. They didn't feel like talking so one of the technicians suggested teleporting them back to their secret island. And Superman was right there waiting for them. To be clear, it's explicitly described as teleportation. They were teleported from Pluto's orbit to Earth and Superman was right there. They even made it a point to show that Superman hadn't left before they teleported. And Goku himself describes Instant Transmission as basically a more complicated form of teleportation. So while Superman probably can't fly to the other side of the universe in an instant, that isn't really a necessity for a one-on-one brawl where both of the opponents won't give up no matter what. TL;DR, Superman can move faster than Instant Transmission, at least when it's practically applied to combat.
• Ki: KI! IS! NOT! MAGIC! Both Death Battle and Dragon Ball go out of their way to explain the difference. Ki may be spiritual in nature but that still doesn't make it magic, so Superman would defend against it just like anything else that isn't magic or Kryptonite.
• Ultra Instinct: I've seen people say that there's no way Superman could beat Ultra Instinct. Let's brainstorm then, Ultra Instinct allows Goku to sever his consciousness from his body. This allows his body to move instantaneously to any threat, evading any blow that comes his way and fighting back with pinpoint accuracy. But we don't know for sure if this could beat Superman. Please look up to the previously mentioned "faster than teleportation" feat. We've already noted how ridiculously fast Superman is, but just to clarify things further, Superman has also been shown to have casual high-speed conversations with the Flash. Sometimes, when talking to the Flash, Superman would speed himself up so that he could talk at Flash's pace. The result is that basically the whole world around them freezes in time. And we just don't know if Ultra Instinct could counter an attack from someone moving so fast that everything stands still. Even if it could, Ultra Instinct just makes the user faster, nobody ever said anything about strength or stamina getting an increase once one masters it. We've already seen Superman displaying feats of strength and durability that Goku just can't do, such as bench pressing the weight of the entire Earth for five days straight without sunlight or surviving a blow equivalent to 15 supernovas going off at once. Considering this fight would most likely take place on Earth, as long as Superman absorbs the rays from its yellow sun, its very likely that even if Superman can't hit Goku, Goku's body would tire itself out because he just can't do enough damage to bring Superman down with his strength, martial arts and NOT MAGIC ki attacks before getting too exhausted to keep fighting. TL;DR, while Ultra Instinct could maybe stop Superman from hitting Goku, it's still not enough to actually beat him.

No matter how you look at it, Goku can't reach Superman's level. Name one time where Goku punched a moon in half or survived being the filling of a planet sandwich and I'll gladly eat my words. And I know that people will still be saying that Goku should win and they hate Superman, well your feelings are not a factor.

And just try to think about how your own logic for Goku winning works. You guys think Superman is a boring character because he's too powerful. You then say that Goku, your favorite character, can beat Superman, which would make him more powerful. So which one is it? Is Goku boring or weaker than Superman? By your own logic, it has to be one or the other.

And don't say all of Superman's feats are just "shoddy writing". That's a lazy excuse and you know it. And it's not like Dragon Ball is a bastion for perfect writing either. This is a franchise with an alien race where every single member is named after a vegetable. I don't care if you're a fan or not, that is stupid.

And to people suggesting that Goku would instant transmission to a red star, he would not do that. According to Death Battle rules, neither character would know anything about each other aside from their names. Superman has no reason to tell Goku that red sunlight drains his powers. And even if he did, Goku would never use it, because Goku always wants to fight his opponents at his best. He's not fighting to win, he's fighting to improve himself. And suggesting that Goku teleports Superman to a red sun is basically admitting that Goku can't win without cheating. But fine, let's say Goku is okay with violating his beliefs, his instincts, and everything he stands for, exposure to red sun radiation isn't an automatic win as we've seen Superman fly through a red sun no problem. If you want more evidence, there's the episode "Solar Power" from Superman TAS (Which I'm allowed to use under Death Battle's rules), that depicts Superman, though weakened, is still able to fly and lift things far heavier than him while being exposed to red rays. Sure, continued exposure was robbing his powers, but in a battle to the death, Superman wouldn't stay there for long and the power drain would be minimal at best. Heck, he'd more than likely fly away from that planet as fast as he could so he can find a yellow star to charge up, and would probably take Goku with him since Goku can't survive in the vacuum of space.

But I understand that people will still be insisting that Goku should win, and the reason why is that Goku fans tend to look at Superman through the same lens they see Goku. Goku is defined by his powers, specifically how he gets them. Goku trained his entire life to be the greatest warrior he could possibly be because of his saiyan instincts. Goku fights a new foe, gets his ass kicked, trains, fights him again and comes out on top. That's basically Dragon Ball in a nutshell, and it works because Goku exists to send the message that anything is possible with enough hard work and dedication. Goku wants to be the strongest and trains every day to get to that goal. It's because of his dogged persistence to achieve his dream why so many people admire him.

It's also the reason why a lot of Goku fans look down on Superman. Superman never had to train, he was already the strongest because he was Kryptonian. As a result, many Goku fans think Superman is just a lazy jerk who never had to work to gain anything. The problem is is that Superman exists to send a very different message than Goku. Superman never wanted power. In fact, if he were born human, he would've happily spent his days tending to his parents farm. Superman's story isn't about his godhood, it's about his humanity. Everything about who he is is because he had a normal upbringing on Earth. That's why he was raised by two humble farmers and not a martial arts master. That's why his being a Kryptonian doesn't affect his instincts, unlike Goku whose Saiyan instincts are at least in part of why he wants to be the strongest. Superman's sense of goodness, compassion, and selflessness aren't inherit to him in anyway. It's all because of his upbringing that he's the hero he is.

This shows in stories like Superman: Red Sun or the Nail, where it shows how Superman is raised can make a huge difference. It's also why we have stories like Injustice or Superman vs the Elite, that shows a Superman who gives up on his ideals isn't Superman.

The hosts at Death Battle spent so much time talking about his godhood that they forget to mention his humanity. That the message Superman tells is that you don't need to be a god to have his ideals. That you don't need powers to fight for truth, justice, and the American way. That you don't need to be able to do what Superman can do to be like Superman.

Look, I've said my piece and I still doubt I'll change anyone's mind. I just want people to realize how pointless this argument really is. You don't have to like one character along with the other, you just have to accept the facts when the evidence is presented to you. And even if Superman's power isn't limitless, it's obvious that it's so far above what Goku can do that it might as well be. This isn't an attack against Goku. As Wiz himself said, he's more than likely the most powerful martial artist in anime history and will consistently be one of if not the most powerful character in his universe. It's just that the DC universe is so full of universe ending threats and beings that could wipe out entire galaxies at once, that hardly anybody from DB's universe would last long. Unlike Superman who was made to take on such threats; not always alone, but certainly as his universe's best bet.

So for one last time, what happens when you pit a man with the power to break any limits against another who has no limits in the first place? Well, only one has limits to give at all. But that's the reason why he's adored by so many. And the ideals that Superman has, that gives him the drive to fight against the greatest evils in his universe is the reason why he's adored by so many. You don't have to like both these characters. I'm just asking you to understand that neither one of them follow the same rules and that the character you like most doesn't always have to win. That's not the reason why you like them, and you shouldn't have to justify what they mean to you to anybody, nor should you attack someone for preferring one over the other. Like whoever you want to like, just stop wasting time on a pointless debate with an obvious answer.

Submitted September 12, 2019 at 05:36AM by awesomesauce477 https://ift.tt/2I3nPnt