Well hi there. I'm a former Bayo main who has settled to replace her with Palutena, but I still have around 14 hours with Bayo in ultimate and I'd like to open a discussion about her state in the game and why I think she was nerfed too much.
Let me preface this by saying that Bayonetta was OP in smash 4 and needed toned down coming into Ultimate, and that returning her to her state in Smash 4 would be a giant mistake. But that being said, I do think Nintendo went overboard with the nerfs and right now Bayonetta feels incredibly clunky and useless compared to other characters.
Bayonetta is faster overall. Her dash, walk, and air speed is higher.
This is a nice buff, but Bayonetta being slow was never an issue.
Bullet arts can be angled depending on the move.
I have no idea who thought this was true because I have attempted this with all of her moves and this is not true. Bullet arts cannot be angled.
Jab connects more reliably but has less range and deals less damage.
Bayonetta’s jab was already a horrible aspect of her kit due to the startup lag that it had, thank god it didn’t have the startup lag nerfed. Either way toning it down wasn’t necessary, jab was never a problem with her.
Up tilt launches enemies in a angle that makes it easy to follow up on.
This is all fine and dandy until you realize it knocks people back too high up into the air at higher percentages and since her ladder combos are only reliable at low percentages and no longer kill even if pulled off at higher percentages. You can only reliably follow up on it at low percentages. At higher % maybe an up air, but usually nothing beyond that.
Up and down tilt have more endlag.
So much for being easy to follow up on an up tilt. The Endlag only went up by 5 frames but every frame counts when ur talking about Nerfs. For buffs they usually aren't as substantial.
Forward smash has 2 less frames of startup lag and can be angled.
Forward smash is, to put this delicately, the single worst move in Bayos kit. It’s hitbox is jank, priority is awful, and is only reliable for kills near the edge of the stage. But oho 2 less frames of startup lag, wow that’s so OP. It went down from 19 to 17. That’s negligible. And as for angling it? Since when has anybody complained that the fist can’t be angled. The only benefit to angling her smash attacks is the fact that you get to see what Madama Butterfly’s fist looks like if she twists it the wrong way.
Held N-Air has 8 more frames of endlag
Okay that is an 80% increase in landing lag. They almost doubled the endlag on her N-Air. N-Air was supposed to be the way Bayonetta could rack bullet arts on enemies, and now it went from safe to unsafe. It could have been nerfed to 13-15 frames and you would have gotten the same result of making it less safe without making Bayonetta feel clunky as fuck and just being an overall horrible move.
Held U-air has 4 more frames of endlag
A 33% increase in endlag. This is a bit more reasonable honestly.
F-air has less 2 less frames of landing lag
This always rounded off combos. Less landing lag means nothing. Especially since combos make her far laggier when she lands. This doesn’t change anything. It’s an empty buff.
All of her F-air hits deal more damage. From 3/2.2/6 to 4/3.3/7.
Just like the previous buff, means absolutely nothing. This doesn’t improve Bayonetta at all. It’s an empty buff.
Forward Air no longer bounces, meaning it cannot be followed up with ABK or Witch Twist
This is probably the most notable and understandable nerf to her F-air. Remember how Bayo can use F-air 1 to string into itself to send someone off the side of the map? Well yeah her bouncing gave her an option to recover once she was finished doing that. So I get this nerf, it makes sense.
All hits of F-Air have more endlag. From 27/32/40 to 38/40/47.
Jesus Christ an 11 frame endlag nerf on the first hit. If they are so concerned that Bayonetta is gonna F-air 1 somebody off the side all they needed to do was remove the bounce. Who thought this was a good idea. All these endlag nerfs do it make it easy to punish a Bayonetta who actually lands her attacks. Which shouldn’t happen. If any other character was at a disadvantage because they were hitting people with attacks due to how laggy they are on the backend, there would be outcry to fix the character. (Samus anybody?) But bc it’s Bayo it’s all gucci? That makes no sense. A simple 6 or 7 frame Endlag nerf would cut off her sideways combo. 11 frames was excessive.
B-air and normal U-air has less landing lag. From 12 to 10 and from 12 to 8.
All this does is punish Bayonetta for using bullet arts and the B-air landing lag buff means nothing because usually people are knocked away from her harshly enough from her B-air that landing lag doesn’t really matter. If she misses (which she usually will bc of how laggy the move is on the startup), punishing is still fairly easy since most punish moves don’t come out on frame 11.
B-Air hitbox reduced and has 5 more frames of endlag. From 30 to 35.
Again, whose idea was it to nerf a move that wasn’t a problem? Back air was not a problem. It is now one of her only kill moves and it has been nerfed fairly hard. Oh and that previous landing lag buff? Means pretty much nothing when you stop to consider how a lot of aerial attacks come out quicker than ground moves. Yay a 2 frame buff of endlag on B-air if you land during the attack, but a 5 frame increase in endlag if you don’t land during the attack. As if the move wasn’t already risky.
U-air damage, knockback growth, and knockback angle changed/nerfed.
This is the nerf that pisses me off to an almost unreasonable degree. She can’t ladder you off the top anymore guys, this nerf was just pounding nails into the coffin. And here’s an idea. With how much harder it is to pull off her combos, I think if I catch you in one near the top and hit you with an up air to finish the job and ur at a high %, you should die, especially if you are a lightweight. But when lightweights can survive getting hit off the top with this move at over 200%, it’s pretty clear it was nerfed too much. And I'll put money on this coming as a result of the invitational where MkLeo laddered Plup. Which when you consider all the factors, it's pretty clear either Sakurai didn't know what he was doing or he was trying to appease an angry group.
D-Air has less knockback and more 2 more frames of endlag (28->30)
I never really cared about D-Air and honestly all it’s good for rn is just to get to the ground before your opponent so you have a chance to leverage all the percentage you just put on them before they hit the ground bc of all the endlag you suffer from with her combos.
Down throw has less knockback scaling, improving combo potential at high percentages.
Too bad Witch Twist knocks you away too far for an ABK to connect to you at higher percentages.
Bullet Climax takes longer to charge, needs to be fully charged to be shield cancelled, and autofires after time.
Bullet Climax was not exactly a giant issue. The shield cancelling wasn’t a problem if you were smart enough to know what she was doing. Needing to fully charge it in order to shield cancel goes against her whole “bait and counter” playstyle. It provides very large windows to exploit and very small windows to get value. This is also without mentioning that Bullet Climax is a pretty bad move to begin with because you cannot angle it and the kill power is low. The increase in time required to charge is also unnecessary, seeing as how they already nerfed the ability to shield cancel and the move was bad to begin with.
If Heel slide connects with a shield, Bayonetta cannot perform the second hit
The punish window was finally created with this nerf so I’m not against it.
Heel slide second hit has larger knockback scaling and is harder to combo off of
You know for a combo based character, they sure want to kill off Bayonetta’s ability to perform combos don’t they?
If an ABK connects with a shield, Bayonetta cannot perform a second.
Makes sense
Downward ABK cannot be autocancelled
Makes sense, but nothing else akin to this move should be autocancelling if this move cannot.
Downward ABK launches at 80 degrees, allowing it to combo into itself more reliably.
I like this change but I would rather they just revert the first angle nerf and just make it so there needs to be a buffer attack in between in order to perform a second ABK (Like Witch twist or if it wasn’t nerfed I’d suggest the first hit of her F-air but oh wait. Forgot about that). Or make it so that the knockup is significant enough that she can combo this into aerials but not another ABK without double jumping.
Witch Twist had increased startup and endlag (4->8) and (28->32)
A 100% increase in startup lag and a 4 frame increase in endlag. This is way more significant than you think because it doesn’t make witch twist just an unsafe out of shield option, it makes it an unsafe move pretty much at all. Smash attack can now very easily punish Bayonetta for a whiffed Witch Twist, which can easily result in her death because she was made lighter and easier to launch.
Witch Twist gains less vertical height
Makes no sense whatsoever. This was supposed to also be her recovery move. Not cool Nintendo.
Witch Twist no longer ledge snaps.
Somebody needs to explain to me why Bayonetta’s up B doesn’t get to ledge snap but every other up B does? Bc you can’t edgeguard it? Boo-hoo. You can’t edge guard a lot of things, but bc it’s Bayonetta suddenly there’s an issue with it. This neuters her recovery and makes her too easy to edgeguard.
Witch time no longer grants intangability
I have no issue with this
Witch time duration significantly lowered, duration still scales with damage of attack dodged, but max duration scaled back heavily, while minimum duration also scaled back heavily.
Okay I agree witch time needed nerfed but it should still scale with enemy damage %. The fact that a 200% King K. Rool can get witch timed by a jab and I still don’t have the time to F smash him to kill him is complete bullshit. And guess what happens if I try? Well if the smash doesn’t whiff bc it connected with the hitbox of K. Rool’s jab, witch time will likely be over and he’ll probably have a second jab ready to punch me off the map with. Witch time used to be overpowered, capping the max duration was smart. Capping it this low was stupid. Witch time lasts about as long as sex with a 15 year old virgin and everyone is acting like “Oh it’s still OP. You can’t leverage it at all but it slows me down so it’s still OP”.
Witch time has increased startup and endlag
Why does a parry style move have startup lag? That doesn’t make any sense. Increased endlag that’s fine, maybe 17 frames of increased endlag was a bit much and you could have accomplished the same task with idk maybe 13 or 15 but oh well. If witch time was more powerful I'd understand a 17 frame Endlag nerf.
The landing lag received for air combos increased.
Yeah to an insanely heavy degree. It’s quite literally unreasonable how harshly she got nerfed in this department. It makes it incredibly easy to punish her for landing successful combos.
SO all of this happened to Bayonetta to bring her strength levels down. But this was far too much. Bayonetta is currently in an horrible state. She is incredibly clunky and lacks kill power, her combos are difficult to pull off, easy to escape, can be punished for successful use, and aren’t viable to get kills with.
So how to fix Bayonetta? Well I have ideas.
Let her angle bullet Climax.
Currently the angle at which bullet climax fires feels incredibly clunky and doesn't give her a viable zoning option. Currently bullet Climax is very easy to punish. Allowing her to angle the attack would help give her some ranged harass options.
Revert knockback angle change on up air.
Seeing as how her ladder comboes have been removed, I don't see why bringing this back would be an issue. If you keep the knockback scaling nerf and the damage nerf, Up air still isn't killing at crazy low percentages. Reverting the knockback angle change would just allow her to secure kills off the top again against enemies weak Enough that they should die.
Tone down landing lag on held Nair to 14 frames.
18 frames, which is an 80% increase from the original held Nair, is very clunky and makes Bayonetta feel incredibly unintuitive. Using a unique mechanic in her kit is disincentivized by all these nerfs to her frame data and makes it seem like a waste, which makes Bayonetta feel much more bland and unintuitive as a character.
Lower damage and increase range on bullet arts.
The current rendition of Bullet arts makes it so a fully held jab 1 can rack 6% of bonus damage on an enemy. If you tone that down to 4% and buff the range by let's say 35-40%, I bet you'll see it get a lot more use and it not feel like a high risk/low reward ability.
Witch Twist can ledge snap.
I don't get it honestly. If Zelda, Meta Knight, Sheik, Palutena, etc. Can use moves that let them get back onto the stage safely why is it only an issue when Bayonetta has this ability? Currently she's too easy to edgeguard.
Decrease the accumulation of landing lag that an air combo accrues.
This way the accumulated landing lag doesn't expose Bayonetta to be punished for successful combos.
I'd love to discuss this with people and discuss the issue. Currently Bayonetta feels like an unfinished Character. And I don't feel inclined to listen to people who insult and degrade my opinion simply because the character in mind is Bayonetta. I understand the controversy that entails her and I'd love for it to not exist, so let's not bring up smash 4 and act like gutting her Into the dirt is okay bc of how strong she was in Smash 4.
Either way, I'd love to discuss.
Submitted December 22, 2018 at 02:31AM by PickCollins0330 http://bit.ly/2Sf7RtB
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